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Post by spannernick on Oct 16, 2020 15:18:41 GMT
I noticed there are no THE VIC 20 on eBay, when THEC64 Maxi was coming out it was on eBay as preorders but nothing for THE VIC 20, Can't be as popular.. Well I want a Amiga more than a VIC 20, THE VIC 20 don't interest me, I only had the C64 when I was a kid, never used a VIC 20, I used a PET before getting the C64, THE VIC 20 will probably sell better in the USA and Germany. I got a AMIGA A500 in 1990 and it blew me away... and I have loved the Amiga ever since, I have A500,A600,A1200 and a ARMIGA. If you look on Amazon UK THEVIC 20 has not sold out like THEC64 Maxi did. VIC20 was only in the UK for a year before the C64 came out in 1984.
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Post by shaunbebbers on Oct 21, 2020 17:00:14 GMT
Well the Commodore VIC-20 was popular, but it's commercial lifespan wasn't much longer than five years, which is a shame as the Atari VCS-2600 continued until the early 1990's, and the VIC could well compete with that machine on many levels. The Commodore 64 on the other hand had at least 10 years commercial life plus some extended use thanks to CMD and its great hardware add-ons, like the RAMLink etc.
I prefer THEVIC20 to THEC64 and Mini actually; the colours are just nicer on the eye for me. I also have as many fond memories with the VIC as I do with the C64. But at the moment the Mini is still RGL's best selling product.
Regards,
Shaun.
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Post by spannernick on Oct 22, 2020 21:11:23 GMT
Did RGL know they were going to make THE VIC20 when they made THEC64 Maxi and added the xvic(Vic20) emulator to it to test if users liked it and see it was a good idea to make as there next product..?
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Post by adgloride on Oct 23, 2020 21:27:12 GMT
I’ve ordered mine and it’s hopefully coming tomorrow. I just hope I get it and not have as much hassle as I did with thec64
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Post by shaunbebbers on Oct 30, 2020 13:00:21 GMT
Did RGL know they were going to make THE VIC20 when they made THEC64 Maxi and added the xvic(Vic20) emulator to it to test if users liked it and see it was a good idea to make as there next product..? The VIC-20 mode was a feature that users requested once the full-sized machine was going to be available, because it made sense. It wasn't much more development time, and the keyboard on the cost-reduced VIC-20 and C64 breadbins is the same. I don't know 100% how THEVIC20 happened, but I suspect it wasn't planned at the point when the VIC-20 mode was added to THEC64. As a side note, this is why it's good to go through official channels when you want features added to THEC64. People asking for features elsewhere, especially if it's written as a complaint, means that we're not sure if people really want the feature, or just like to have something to complain about. Email us: support[at]retrogames.biz :-) Regards, Shaun.
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Post by grasshopper on Oct 30, 2020 16:37:24 GMT
Personally, I think The VIC 20 looks much nicer than The C64. If The VIC 20 had been available 6 months ago, I would definitely have bought one in preference to The C64. Unfortunately, I can't really justify buying both as they are essentially the same product.
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Post by turrican9 on Dec 14, 2022 21:32:02 GMT
I have ordered myself another TheVic20. It was discounted (like 90 euros for TheVic20 and about 124 Euros for a TheC64) and cheaper than a TheC64 here in Norway. Also, I could only find a few TheVic20s still for sale while there was plenty of TheC64s for sale here in Norway. So I guess TheVic20 is gone soon. After all, it was limited edition. And for that price I just had to get another one. So I will end up with two TheVic20s and one TheC64. Personally I find TheVic20 better looking than TheC64.
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Post by c64stuff on Dec 15, 2022 11:17:57 GMT
The early Commodore 64s were slightly taller because they used the Vic20 mold, so it made sense that Retro Games Ltd would use these dimensions and then produce both The Vic20 and The C64 Maxi.
The Vic20 was the first personal computer to sell over a million units, despite others like Apple having a several year headstart. The Vic20 was extremely popular in the states, it's just that when the C64 came out it quickly overshadowed everything on the market including the Vic20. If Commodore would have given the Vic20 8 or 16k of ram from the start it would have been even more popular and probably stayed on the market a few more years. At that time ram prices were falling drastically as shown by the C64 and other machines with 16k or more RAM and this quickly left the Vic20 behind. At the time having more RAM was a big selling point of computers. This is part of the reason the Commodore 128 came to life.
Btw search for The Retro Hour podcasts on their channel. There are a few excellent interviews with people directly involved with the Vic20 from Commodore, including the guy people refer to as Jack's right-hand man. One story about how they made a better Pac-Man clone on the Vic20 than Atari did on their own 2600 is worth listening to alone on that podcast. Jack basically said don't approach Atari trying to license the game, and told them to just go ahead and release it and let Atari sue and they'll settle for a commission, because he knew that Jelly Monsters game would sell a lot of Vic20s. Incidentally, if you play the NTSC 60khz version of this game it has less flicker than the PAL version. The Japanese designers of this game also did an excellent Galaxian clone called Star Battle. Some say it's a better Galaxian clone than anything the C64 had for years.
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Post by turrican9 on Dec 15, 2022 18:46:56 GMT
So my latest TheVIC20 arrived today. Box arrived unharmed luckily. Serial number is 00001246. So looks like an early one. Came with 1.4.1 firmware. My other TheVIC20 which I bought in June 2021 has 00002140 as serial number and came with the 1.5.1 firmware (the one that was discontinued and later replaced with 1.5.2). My TheC64 which was also bought in June of 2021 has serial: 00040367 and also came with firmware 1.4.1 if I remember correctly.
Looking at these serials and what firmware they came with originally makes me wonder how many TheVIC20s are made VS TheC64s. We all know TheVIC20 is a limited edition TheC64. As it says on the box. As an example: let's say if 100K TheC64s were made I would guess that less than 10K TheVIC20s were made. Maybe even just 5K or lower.
Would be really interesting to know the numbers. Right now I cannot find any TheVic20s left for sale in Norway. I do however find quite a few TheC64s.
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Post by c64stuff on Dec 16, 2022 0:58:41 GMT
Your question reminds me of a video done by I think 8 Bit Show And Tell? In that video they were trying to estimate I think the total number of C64s and 1541 and other disk drives sold by Commodore, because the total number of C64s for instance differs by I think 4 or 5 million depending on who you believe. The interesting thing about this video is they were using a calculation formula based on what was used by the allies in WWII after examining destroyed German tanks to figure out how many German tanks were built based on serial numbers if I remember correctly. They were asking people to post a picture of their C64 (and disk drives I think?) serial numbers to aid in the project.
And btw nobody should take it as a slight to Vic20 fans that they didn't make as many Vic20 replicas as they did of the C64. In proportions, while the Vic20 outsold many competitors, the C64 outsold the Vic20 by even more massive proportions. And besides, many Vic20 fans migrated to the C64 and found many common traits of the Vic20 on the C64, such as Petsci graphics, peripherals that could be carried forward and plug right into the C64, etc. The Vic20 was a very good machine in it's time frame, with graphics that could rival or beat anything on the market if you had enough ram (or Rom). While it was before my time I still marvel at what it was able to do back then. Think I heard even Elon Musk used one as his first computer and introduction to technology?
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Post by turrican9 on Dec 16, 2022 2:10:15 GMT
So far I haven't seen many serial numbers except a thread in this forum about TheC64 serial numbers, all the youtube videos about TheC64s and TheVic20s and my 2x TheVic20s and 1x TheC64. And so far I haven't seen any TheC64s much above the 00045xxx range and not seen any TheVic20s much above the 000025xx range.
I am just glad I managed to get myself another TheVic20 for a good price. I think they will be completely gone soon. I also have real Vic20, C64s and Amigas. Aswell as Turbo Chameleon 64 V2. But I must say I really love TheC64/TheVic20. I think they really hit the nail with these. I have little interest in the mini version though. And I hope for a full size Amiga with a working keyboard. I will be all over it. I doubt we will see a full size A500 as I think it's too big to make any sense in this market. But it would be awesome. I think it's more likely to see a full size A600 or A1200 replica. If we see one that is.
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Post by c64stuff on Dec 16, 2022 11:58:46 GMT
Retro Games Ltd said they intended to make a full size Amiga with working keyboard if the A500 mini sells well. Judging by all the videos by even non Amiga users (younger and older) who bought the A500 mini because they knew of the Amiga and it's gaming reputation, along with the amount of views and remarks by other non Amiga gamers (younger and older) under those videos saying they love it, I'd say it's a safe bet that the Mini was a success.
But yeah you're right I'd be shocked if they made a full size A500. My guess is if they do go with the 500 model it will be shrunk down in scale by a certain percentage. Or they'll go with the 600 or 1200. Then again there already are existing Amiga 500 molds by several aftermarket companies being used to make cases and some of these aftermarket companies are also making Amiga 500 keyboards, so Retro Games Ltd partnering with one of them to produce full size 500 cases might be such a huge cost saving measure that they're able to just go ahead and produce a full size 500. Way I understand it molds are one of the most expensive things to buy when producing a product. I think some of those aftermarket 500 cases already have pop out port panels to use with original hardware but also have the option to leave them covered and use USB ports for installing a modern emulation single board computer.
Yes you're right the C64 and Vic20 maxi are great machines. They provide a way for even non C64 original hardware fans to easily access and play the games they've heard were legendary on the C64 at a reasonable price without the hassle or expense of using original hardware. I had the C64 Maxi for a few months and it was great, but I had to sell it after an injury for financial reasons. I plan to buy another soon as I'm back on my feet. Still have the C64 mini though and even though I also have a raspberry pi setup for gaming I still prefer the mini for C64 stuff because of it's more seamless ease of use in certain respects. I think it's perfect for people who aren't big C64 fans yet and provides them a cheap way to test the waters of C64 gaming, or even for original hardware owners who don't want to drag everything out everytime they want to use the C64. Same with the A500 mini. I let my nephews use the C64 mini and they loved the GUI frontend and had a blast playing games, even though they own a XBox and a Nintendo Switch.
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Post by turrican9 on Dec 16, 2022 15:28:56 GMT
yes,
As I said, I am a fan of the real hardware aswell, but I see certain benefits of using my TheC64/TheVic20 over real hardware. Pixel perfect picture via HDMI with smooth scrolling, nice and easy frontend, savestates and connecting to modern LCD TVs with good results. For my real C64s I need my retro tink mini to get smooth scrolling on a modern HDMI TV. But the picture quality is of course inferior to the TheC64/The Vic20. And no savestates.
I do have older LCD TVs that will accept svideo from C64 and will also interpret the signal correct and get nice and smooth scrolling. But again, inferior picture quality. CRTs are out of the question for me these days. Hurts my eyes. For my Turbo Chameleon 64 V2s I use modern 5:4 VGA LCD monitors that accepts the 'Sync to VIC II' feature and I get smooth scrolling and a nice picture. These screens also accepts 15KHz directly from Amiga or 31KHz 50Hz from scandoublers like ECS V3s.
But for modern 16:9 LCD TVs you mostly need stuff like retro tink or OSSC for Amiga/C64/Vic20 to get proper results. While TheC64/TheVIC20 are made to work directly on modern TVs.
For pure C64/VIC20 emulation use I struggle to see why I would want a rasperry Pi or something like a BMC64 in a real case over my TheC64/TheVIC20. It wouldn't be as streamlined and I would probably need to tinker around to get smooth scrolling. TheC64/TheVic20 already has the case and keyboard and everything set up to work nicely with a nice frontend. And for a nice price. TheC64/TheVIC20 has a couple of limitations. Like no true disk emulation for D81 (But will run most D81s fine anyway) and no saving to easyflash cartridge images (But we have savestates anyway). And yes, I know, I can run full blown Vice on these units. But that sacrifices smooth scrolling and the nice and easy, streamlined frontend, so I prefer the stock setup. Also, no support for VIC20 megacart unless you run full blown vice. Which is no big deal either, as I use the seamless frontend to run all the cartridge images individually anyway. Just like I would from the megacart. And when it comes to true disk emulation for D64s I just use cjm files to 'dictate' true disk emulation for whole directories or rename individual files.
Other than that, there is of course a small input delay when using emulators over real hardware/FPGA solutions. But I think the input delay I see on TheC64/TheVIC20 is so small that it doesn't ruin my experience. I can feel the difference when coming from my real C64s/TC64V2s but it's not enough to make games unplayable or make me want to stop using it over the real hardware.
Also, TheC64/TheVIC20 has a sense of originality. They are the 'modern' releases of these classic home computers. They come in boxes that are similar to the original boxes and they even have the silver stickers with serial numbers. This whole package makes it feel more original and unique.
All these units have a place in my home, I use and love them all.
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Post by c64stuff on Dec 16, 2022 18:58:56 GMT
I'm hoping after a full sized Amiga with working keyboard that Retro Games Ltd makes a few other machines, such as a Spectrum and an Atari 8 bit computer that also runs all the 2600, 400, 800, 5200, 7800, and Pro System games. Maybe instead they could make an Atari St Falcon that runs St games and all of the 8 bit stuff.
For the Spectrum, yes there is the new Spectrum Next FPGA computer but that thing is priced out of most casual fans of the Spectrum. I never owned one and can't see myself buying a Next, but I would buy a Spectrum emulation clone with a working REAL non chicklet keyboard. Maybe make the keys look like they are original but for god's sake make them mechanical. A Spectrum that could also emulate later Spectrum models and even the ZX80 and 81 for $125 to $150 I'd definitely buy. There's some pretty impressive Z80 and Z81 games in actual color being done these days. A great video on this is called something like Pushing the limits of the Zx80 and 81. Fascinating stuff.
I guess they could just clone the case of a later Spectrum model with a better keyboard but I don't think that would attract as many big fans of the Spectrum or casual fans that would be interested in finally owning a "Spectrum". And isn't there a more modern Spectrum model created completely in emulation that came out several years ago and many still make games for called Orion or something like that? I may be confusing that with the last model of the Spectrum released that people are writing games for on an emulator called Omega or something? If so emulate that too on it.
For other retro computers there might be a small market for a clone of the Apple II line. I see less demand for a macintosh or Tandy Color Computer clone.
I'd love to see Retro Games Ltd make a full size exact replica of a Vectrex game console complete with a OLED screen for a sharp vector graphics effect. Eliminate the need for color overlays by doing it in software and also make it able to load and play vector graphics arcade games using MAME as well as being able to play other non vector graphics arcade games too. I think that would be a winner sold in stores to even people too young to remember the Vectrex, because it would be like a tabletop arcade cabinet complete with screen, two player controls, and a screen all in one unit.The novelty of vector graphics would in a sense be new to people and unique among the general public, and the ability to play real arcade game classics they do know about I think would be a big seller.
Add optional accessories like a trackball for arcade games like Missile Command, and maybe even an optional steering wheel that can be removed from a spinner for things like racing games or Arkanoid. Something like this would appeal to both Vectrex fans and people who never even knew it existed but would love to have a self contained tabletop arcade cabinet with accessories they can buy for it, and those accessories could be bought and used by people who don't even own the Vectrex clone but want to plug them into USB and use on other emulator platforms.
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Post by The Geek on Skates on Dec 17, 2022 15:56:50 GMT
I can't coment on TheVIC20's popularity vs. TheC64, but the systems they emulate is another thing altogether. In the other Commodore fan communities I'm in, the general attitude seems to be "yeah the VIC is cool, but the C64 is king." The VIC-20 had a few things working against it: RAM limits, no sprites, no ADSR, only one joystick port, etc. So for the average Joe gamer, unfortunately there is no contest. Having said that, I personally am a huge fan of the VIC-20. I didn't have a VIC or C64 growing up, so there's no nostalgia here. But as a programmer, I love the VIC's simpler graphics and sound. I also don't have the greatest vision, so I prefer the VIC's bigger letters if I'm doing anything text-based. As a result, I also know the VIC's memory map better. So if I were about to start on a new 8-bit game (which I'm thinking about, as usual), I'd be more likely to target the VIC than the C64. On the other hand, who doesn't want 64K+ of RAM, with objectively better graphics and sound? I do sometimes like to put my TheVIC20 in C64 mode (or use the carousel) and play C64 games on it. I'm addicted to Boulder Dash, and I'm still trying to beat the Super Mario port (the final Bowser got me last time I tried). So even a VIC fan like me has to admit, the C64 is awesome. But that's why I love my TheVIC20 - I don't have to choose!
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Post by turrican9 on Dec 17, 2022 19:01:26 GMT
But that's why I love my TheVIC20 - I don't have to choose! Exactly. TheVIC20 and TheC64 is basically the same machine. Only difference is that TheVic20 looks nicer in my opinion. Due to the color of the case and the PET fonts on the keys. Also the orange 'F' keys And since it's limited edition it will be even harder to get hold of as time goes.
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Post by c64stuff on Dec 18, 2022 2:10:49 GMT
Some original hardware C64s did come with orange function keys. And yeah, TheVic20 being in far less numbers I'd expect it to go up in price in the aftermarket. But I expect that of the C64 Maxi too once new ones dry up. I had the C64/joystick all in one combo bought at Toys R Us for I think $20 years ago. Being that it was a real C64 on a chip (that I didn't know) complete with things like serial ports on the circuit board that could be hacked out into a real functioning C64, I would have never sold it at a garage sale years ago for like $5 because those things are expensive now.
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Post by mobluse on Feb 11, 2023 19:01:28 GMT
I had THEC64, but it had a sticky joystick and I returned it and got a new that I didn't open. Then I bought THEVIC20 and I liked that much better because the graphics characters on the front of the keys are higher up and the joystick is much better than the sticky on the early THEC64. Then I sold the unopened THEC64 at half the original price. I can run all C64 games on THEVIC20 because it's just the case, included games, and screen color scheme that is different. My first computer was a Sinclair ZX81, and I used ABC80 in school, but C64 and C128 (including CP/M) during compulsory military service (off duty).
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